You Are Not Your Job: Redefining Success Beyond Titles feat. Angie Callen

In this episode, Alyssa sits down with Angie Callen, a self-described “recovering engineer who loves people,” to talk about the pressure we all feel to define ourselves by what we do instead of who we are. Angie shares how she walked away from a traditional career path to build a life and business that align with her real values. Together, they unpack what authenticity actually means and why it’s okay to admit that your priorities don’t always fit society’s version of success.

This conversation is equal parts inspiring and grounding...a reminder that fulfillment isn’t found in a job title, it’s found in knowing yourself.

Why listen:
If you’ve ever felt stuck in a career that doesn’t fit or wondered who you are outside of work, this one will hit home. Alyssa and Angie explore how to design a career (and a life) that feels true to you.

3 Key Takeaways:

1. You are not your title - identity comes from who you are, not what you do.
2. Core values are your roadmap for building a more authentic life.
3. Change starts with one small action… you don’t have to stay stuck.

It's time to say "goodbye" to the Sunday Scaries.

Connect with Alyssa
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alyssanolte/
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Transcript

0:00

Hey everyone. Welcome back to taking Back Monday. My name is Alyssa Ulti And I'm Angie Callen and we are ready to have a great conversation. So Angie, let's get right into it. What is your origin story? distilled down into the not even Reader's Digest version, just the title of the Reader's Digest version. I would say I am a recovering engineer who loves people. That might be one of the biggest contradictions of any person I've ever, uh, had on this show.'cause recovering engineer who loves people. I don't know that I've ever met someone. In fact, I have a great joke to tell you. Um, how do you tell a. Extroverted engineer from an introverted engineer. God, other than saying her name is Angie, I don't know that. I don't know. Um, they look at your shoes when they're talking to you instead of their own. That's amazing. Oh, that's so perfect for this. Well, and I, I mean, guess what, in a nutshell, that's why I'm a recovering engineer is because I am extremely extroverted and it is not a career track that aligned with my personality. And that was a, a really hard rub for a lot of years. So let's talk more about and dive back more into the recovering part. You said you gave us the Reader's Digest headline, so let's dive back to the beginning of the story. One, how did an outgoing intro extroverted person who loves people end up in the engineering track in the first place? And what are some of the lessons you learned in being a non stereotypical engineer? Uh, those are all very good questions to, to high, high points of the story. So, uh, the long and short of how I ended up in that career field is my dad, uh, was my high school math teacher for three years. And I always excelled in math and science. And when I was, uh, you know, I was a, a top performer, I, you know, I graduated at the top of my, my class. And in hindsight, remember being really self-conscious about not having a c clear career direction. Which when, you know, I'm a, I'm a, a fence rider when it comes to generations. I'm like the youngest Gen X you can be, uh, by 20 days because my birthday is December 10th, 1980. And so I like to think of myself as a Gen Xer with millennial tendencies. And so the. Being raised in a traditional baby boomer household. You know, you go, you pick the career track and you do that thing forever. And I remember being a little self-conscious about not having a clear direction. The spoiler alert on that is because, because I was so entrepreneurial. And that's not something they teach you at the time. But my dad being my math teacher, said, and you're good at math and science. Why don't you think about going to engineering school? And Alyssa, I'm not kidding you with what I'm about to say. I start researching engineering disciplines and I picked civil engineering because based on my research, it was the one where you got to talk to people the most. So even in the engineering track, you managed to find the one that's the least engineery. Theoretically was the least engineering, engineering at Carnegie Mellon. They, all the electrical engineering majors and computer scientists called us the stone crushers. Uh, and so, you know, there were elements of my education, there were even elements of the early career when I was a practicing engineer that I really, I really enjoyed. But ultimately, if I'm honest with myself and everyone else out there. I knew around my junior year it was not my calling, it was not really what I wanted to do. However, when you are self-funding your education at engineering school at Carnegie Mellon, you don't change your major when you're a junior. And, uh, and my, the only options at the time were actually to basically go be a math major if I didn't wanna add a year, and I didn't wanna be a math teacher and I didn't wanna be an actuary because data wasn't a thing yet in the, in 2001 or two or whatever that was. Uh, and so the foresight of, Hey, math, math could take me into the data field. Just didn't exist yet. And so the options were limited and I stuck it out knowing it was kind of, I've kind of gone too far to to turn back now, but what's really interesting about the recovering part is I do have elements of an engineering brain. I am analytical, I love linear process. I have the ability to break down complex things and explain them to people, and all of that are things that I both naturally have and are cultivated. When you go through an engineering education, that is something that people know. You have in your brain. And I definitely think that that's kind of come full circle in a lot of the coaching work I do and how I approach it and who I can, can resonate with. Uh, but it's, it's also funny to think about just being in a really structured, disciplined, dry ass detail oriented environment, which is just not my, not my scene. Let me ask you potentially a loaded question. You said that you were a junior at Carnegie Mellon. When you were thinking, when you had the realization that this was not your, your path, do you regret going forward anyway and not turning around and, and. Saying, okay, I've sunk two years into this, or three years into this, but it's not who I'm going to be. And um, do you regret ignoring that impulse? No, and that's a, that's a great loaded question because I, I've thought about that. I've talked about it and I know 110% no, and to be honest, if I had a to do over, I don't know that I would do that part differently for many reasons. One, I absolutely loved my experience at. College and was the first time I felt like I was really meeting other people like me, who even if they were introverted engineers, they were smart, they were driven. And I didn't go to a, a high school environment that had a lot of that.'cause I grew up in the middle of nowhere in farm country. And so there were really positive and, and, and like, like the global and cultural influence, just, there's so many. I would say like almost non-academic things that I take away from my experience there that make me say absolutely, absolutely not. I wouldn't change a thing. And even in the academic sense, you know, in when I graduated in 2003, we were post nine 11, the economy was meh. And you know, I was able to go and get a specific job that my degree supported. And I know that that helped me start my career off in a successful way. But even, you know, even now, I couldn't be further from engineering, but in a way I am. It's like people are the most complex, most interesting problem out there to solve, and I get to engineer that with them. And there is an element of, of that still in me that I wouldn't wanna not have in how I, uh, you know, approach relationships and approach coaching. Yeah, you, you mentioned something about, you know, you were in this engineering field, you enjoyed the analytical systems process thinking. Kind of approach to it. And the thing that I, I always take notes during these of, of thoughts that are racing through my head as people are talking. We don't have, and I'd love for you to respond too. We don't. Have to be a hundred percent of the thing that we are in order to be successful at it. Because sometimes I feel like I look at my own business and I'm like, okay, I am 85% good at this. I'm 112% good at that. I am 0% good at this other thing, and because of that, I can never be, you know, successful or whatever. Right. Whatever excuse we make for ourselves, because we aren't a hundred percent of the textbook perfect version of. Success in this thing that we wanna be. So how do we one, work past that kind of self-limiting thought? And two, how do I, we really identify what are the things that, that we can do and maybe skills that don't naturally translate to what we're trying to do. Right? Your engineering skills. If you would've told me, I'm a great people person 'cause I am an engineer, I'd be like, no, you're not. Like that doesn't make any sense. So how do we figure that out for ourselves? Yeah. Ooh. There's so many little good pieces here, but I wanna start with the a hundred percent in the success thing because, you know, now we're getting into my ethos, my philosophy, and my he I'll die on coaching, coaching stuff because, you know, I really look at, um. Like, let's, let's say career by design, right? And the, and, and the fact that we have the ability to design. What that looks like, whether it's finding a career with an employer that is designed to support your life or whether it's quite literally building it, because you can't, right. I'm certifiably unemployable. I know that's something you and I share. And so I have quite literally designed a career that can support this lifestyle that we wanna have, and that uses my strengths mitigates or allows me to delegate the weaknesses. I think it's important to just be honest and okay with where some of those fall. Now sometimes there's a weakness you should focus on growing because it could potentially make you more well-rounded, but diversity is the spice of life. Nobody wants an engineering team, or 100% of them are all 100% successful at Ruby on Rails coding because the minute a new type of technology hits the scene, we don't have anybody that's willing to go step outside the box and and innovate. And, you know, there's elements of what I think is wrong with corporate culture coming out here, but, you know, ultimately it's, it's not a bad thing to be the odd man out, to be the ugly duckling, uh, because somebody needs. That uniqueness. And when it comes to success, we should never expect 100% of our success or 100% of our fulfillment to come from any one singular place. We are multi-dimensional people meant to have vocations, meant to have relationships, meant to have hobbies, meant to have fun, meant to relax. And if you are. Attempting to find all of that in a singular place, especially if it's work, you're setting yourself up for, uh, a level of expectation that you're never gonna meet, and also you're missing out on a whole big area of fun. Yeah, it's, it is hard, right?'cause I feel like in this day and age, especially as someone who works from home, you have to. Create this persona online. Right. So a lot of the listeners, it's funny'cause they'll mention things to me in like a real conversation that come from the podcast and it's not something I ever talked about with them, but they, they get to know me more because they're in this environment. But it is hard not to lean in to trying to present what you do the most. Right. So if someone spends most of their time parenting, does their identity become parenting? If someone spends most of their time. Being a podcaster, uh, does my identity identity become being a podcaster? And are we conditioned in today's society of personal branding and public image to lean into that thing that we do the most? You just gave me a freaking silver platter. I'm not even joking. This was the chapter of my book Teaser I was writing yesterday. It was about Oh my God, okay. That is like the, like I believe that the universe puts things in our path, and this is one of those moments. So let's hear about it. Well, and it's, it's really interesting because since I, I, I, I finished the chapter, hit send to my author, coach, and then since then, every conversation that I've had has had some element of this come up. And what I think is so interesting is you hit the nail on the head with the societal norm, is that we are what we do for work. Even I would go so far as to say, however, Alyssa is a human who has interests and loves and passions and a personality inside of there that are completely detached from her work in tech, completely detached from her work in, in podcasting. You know, I say I'm a recovering engineer who loves people. The loving people part is the most important aspect of, of who I am because I genuinely do. And I think that that is a very important aspect of, of who I am and for me, making sure that what I do for work. Uh, aligning with that is important, and that's, that's to me where all the blurred lines come in and they are blurred. Uh, however, I think that we have the ability to be intentional with the blur, uh, and, and also what we lead with because if you do define yourself by labels and titles and roles, whether that's your job at work or your job at home. When you are inevitably put into the position where those labels are ripped off or questioned. You will go into a, an identity crisis and if you don't know who you are inside and what you value, you will have no foundation to fall back upon and ask me how. I know that's why you should go, uh, buy the book when it comes out. Second teaser, but this is why I was talking about this, is because if you don't, don't ever take the time to spend with yourself. Which by the way, we don't do that in society now either.'cause we are always on. You won't really know yourself and you won't be comfortable knowing yourself. And if you don't know those things and what you value and what you prioritize, then the only thing that's left is to operate on an identity of labels, titles, and roles. I wanna double click on something too though, and maybe this is a little bit like self-reflection therapy right now, but I think it's important to be okay with what you actually value.'cause there are times where. I feel like society or work or, or the people that were around, we think we should value something. We're not being honest with ourselves, right? So like I can sit here and pretend like I value, you know, my personal health and wellness, but if I'm being honest, I will sacrifice that all day long for something I want to do instead. Right? And so if I started telling you like, oh, I really value my personal health and wellness, and you said, okay, well what did you sacrifice that you wanted to do in order to do that? And I'd be like, absolutely nothing. And in fact, I made sure I didn't eat anything yesterday 'cause I was so locked in on whatever I was working on. Right. Um, so how do we figure out what we actually care about, truly actually care about in order to build a life that aligns with our, the thing we that makes us, us. Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna start from the kind of what you're not, uh, there is nothing, there's nothing wrong with not putting health and wellness on your top list of six. Ultimately right, but I don't wanna say there is something wrong. However, there's a little chink in the authenticity armor when you posture and say. You do care about it when you don't, especially 'cause there's nothing wrong with not prioritizing it. Uh, and that's where this, just being comfortable with who you are, what you do value and what you don't prioritize, and that's okay. Uh, you know, with you and how you show up is really what, to me the definition of authenticity is. And I really wish that wasn't the buzzword that it is now, because it was definitely the platform on which I author operate before it became so buzzy. But I think. Being okay with you and who you are, regardless of what others will think is an important aspect. Because for instance, you wanna be able to say, yeah, I value my health and wellness because we feel like people will respect us more if we do however the right answer.' cause it's the right answer. And so I think you have to distinguish what you think people want to hear from what your guiding stars and your truths are, and just be okay with the fact that there might be a gap there, however. Uh, it will feel better for the GA for the gap to be in something they didn't like, they may not have wanted to hear, versus you lying to yourself. Also, we, people's heads are so far up that, you know, where they're not thinking about it anyway. Uh, and so that would be just in general, like where that rub, you should lean into that rub because it can tell you something. Uh, as far as what to figure out, like how do I figure out what is important? I am a huge fan of, of core values and I know that it is another trending thing, uh, but it is never anything I really clued into until I started coaching and podcasting. Third, third, shameless plug. No more Mondays. Uh, and the reason, that's why Alyssa and I met by the way, when you've got podcasts with like complimentary names, you have to be each other's guests. But what I realized is that people who had no more Mondays really knew their values and operated on them. And so, uh, you know, sitting down, walking through a core values exercise is an amazing thing to help you understand how and why you show up the way you do and where there's friction. Because then determining how those present themselves is where you figure out little things like, okay, how does health and wellness fall in there? And I'll just use that as a specific example. One of my six core values is fun, and I make sure you feel it when we interact. And I don't take myself very seriously. Also part of our fun and our is adventuring in the mountains here in Colorado where we live. And in order for me to have that fun in a way that feels really good to me, I have to pay attention to my health and wellness. Otherwise, I will die when my husband makes me go mountain bike 16 miles. And so there's, there's a, a cause and effect that can come into, come into play when you look at how your values are actually almost operationalized in life. But it all comes off of this foundation of knowing what is most important to you. It's so funny that you say that you started to figure that out as you got into like podcasting because. I, uh, got into podcasting. I left a, a corporate environment that, you know, it wasn't feeding my soul no shade. Like, it just, it just wasn't. And I started podcasting to kind of rediscover myself and get over some imposter syndrome and force myself to practice this skill, which I think everybody's gonna have to learn how to do, which is talking into a camera into the void. Um, but it's so funny that you say that because as I was. Doing these podcasts and having these conversations, I found myself continually describing myself, whether it was before the call, after the call, or during the pod in the same two ways. And I think I just realized like in this moment that those are probably my core values, my two core values. I only have two that I've like immediately sprung to the mind. And for me it's thrill of the solve because I love nothing more than like. Getting to solve a problem, figure something out. If you're like, oh my gosh, I don't know how to do this. And I'll be like, I will find out how. Right. I just had a friend last night who's publishing a book and she couldn't get it to upload to Kindle, so I watched like 15 videos of how to do this and I said, sending her manuscript, I could totally do it. And I spent a couple hours, uh, editing her manuscript and making it sure it would work with Kindle and send it back. I was like, here you go. And like, I got so much joy than that because it also played on my second core value. Which this one I've known for a while is, um, give, first off, give first, give, often, give more than you get. And I got so much personal joy and satisfaction out of one, being able to solve her problem, but two, being able to solve her problem and being able to do it for her in as a, like an act of love language for my friend who's trying to do something. So not everyone can start a podcast. Uh, how do you, how do you figure out what your core values are when you Ah, have 120 episodes under your belt to, uh, work through that? you start a podcast because, no, I'm kidding. Uh, I mean, in all honesty, it is a really good way to, to build good relationships and like almost synthesize in, in real time. Uh, but, uh, very simply, I have a core values exercise on our website. So you can go to the modern coach.co/core values and we will make sure it's in show notes for you, Alyssa, and, and download. It has, it's, it's really simple. It's got easy instructions, and the, the way I like to do it is you actually start with removing what doesn't interest you. So it's a list of 150 core values. You can, if you don't wanna use mine, you can go download one, and you just start striking through the stuff that gut reaction doesn't, doesn't resonate, and you end up with maybe 20, 30 left that you can start to like compartmentalize or put into buckets and then refine from there. Yeah, I love that and I love that you're making it simple and accessible because I've gone to about 112 different masterclasses, seminars, workshops on all of this culture and leadership stuff, just because I find it interesting. Um, but a lot of times they are expensive. There's some guru who's gonna charge you, you know, a ton of money for 30 minutes of their time. Um. And you might not get what you really, what you really need. So I love that you're making it accessible and available to people who are just dabbling and maybe not sure where to even start. Well, and uh, you know, I have some colleagues and friends who really do focus on like core values coaching, and I think that there is. A, a very good place for that. I also think that if this is really new for you, the best way to do it is to go somewhere where you don't have cell phone service. And you know, I'm a huge fan of nature and all that it can teach us and all that it can do to refuel us. But that's a good example of like, I. Go out into the middle of nowhere where you don't have service, you can't look at your phone and just spend time with yourself and be honest with yourself as you start the exploration. Uh, because I think having no other influence can be, uh, a really powerful thing to, to having it feel like a genuine, genuine, and connected experience. So there was a study recently, I'm gonna piggyback off of that. There's a study recently that I am telling pretty much everyone and their dog about, um, that they did an analysis that people who shower more often. And are more successful and more creative. And I was like, I am in trouble. like, what the hell? Um, and I was like, what does it have to, like, what is it about showering that makes people like, do you just have more time to shower? And that's like, why you're, but no, it is exactly what you said. They found that people in the shower we're leaving their devices outside of their space and that transition time where they had no other real like stimuli distracting them. Allowed their brain to clear waste, allowed themselves to recenter, allowed their brain to make connections it couldn't make.'cause your brain is ultimately super lazy. Like if, if TikTok can make the connections on behalf of your brain, your brain will accept it. If there's no TikTok or thing to make those connections, your brain will start to say like, fine, I'll do my job. Um, and I think you're so right though. I get my best moments of clarity and peace when I leave that stupid little computer at home. Mm-hmm. I saw me, uh, driving, that's a same, same, uh, same exact situation with driving. Right. And it's because. Uh, yeah, you're focused on driving, but it, you know, unless you're in heavy traffic, that's kind of like a, it's a zen moment, just like the, the shower. I also feel better because, um, the, I get that time outside, right. but I saw, I, I, I've seen some memes about, and it makes you really stop and think about how we basically like wake up and look at the tiny screen so that we can go look at the medium screen so that when we're done looking at the medium screen, we can go sit in front of the big screen. While we hold our little screen at the same time. Yeah. Yeah, while holding and scrolling through the mini screen at the same time. And when you think about the fact, you're like, oh crap, I do do that. It starts to make you a little bit more aware of it. So like, you know, for instance, I've tried to, well, when the Doom scrolling got to be untenable, uh, I basically like started buying adult coloring books again, and like crochet needles and just like finding other things to put in my hands. And so you can also force yourself into like almost intentional distraction. To spark creative thought to, you know, to, to kind of spark that, that interest level and, and give yourself a different stimulus. So if someone is hearing this and they think to themselves, my life, who I am in my real life, and who I am in my career, my work life, my job is hearing this, and they're, they're feeling this way. What is the one thing they need to, you know, stop listening to this podcast and start doing right now? Call me I love it. half serious. Most, most seriously kidding, kiddingly serious. Uh, I'm gonna say the number one thing you can do is something, and I know that's a really weird. Thing to say, but it could be the core values. It could be changing your patterns. It could be a hobby, it could be a different stimuli. It, the answer to the question is, is not do nothing. That's the, that's the, that's the biggest piece here because it's very easy. You know, I, I call that the mediocrity trap. So I'll give you like the 32nd story of, you know, when part of the catalyst to a lot of my changes was moving from the east coast to Colorado, which just unlocked a, you know, a whole world of, of realizations and, and, um, you know, self discovery that it wouldn't have. Otherwise. And when I made this move, I remember my friends in Boston, they were like, oh man, you are living my dream. You're living moving to this ski town. I wish I could do that. And I was like, you could do this too. I'm nobody special. And I realized that we just accept mediocrity and we, we stay stuck. And that's a choice. And so my answer to the question in the clearest sense is to make a choice. And the best way to make a choice is to take some small action. That could be downloading core values and going into the woods and walking through them. That could be listening to a different podcast that might inspire you. That could be sitting down with somebody in your household and saying, you know, I don't feel like I am the same person at work as home, and I'm starting to feel the gap. Right? But don't stay in your stuck, mediocre state. Considering all of the incredible people that you know or, or that you aspire to know who is leading the charge, who is taking back Monday. oh man. I feel like I have, so, I have so many people yet not one that, that comes, um, to the top of my head. Uh, I'm gonna throw out my friend Liam Ddy. The reason I'm gonna say that is because he is a very good LinkedIn connection friend of mine who similarly roots himself into like really authentic content, being very open about some of like his journey back to health, his journey as a content creator. But also his expertise in kind of figuring out your, let's say your personal brand side of all of this. And uh, and also he stepped out on his own a little over a year ago and left employment and dove into entrepreneurship to quite literally have control over his Mondays. And if someone is hearing you, they, they heard your call to action just a few minutes ago to do something. Where can they find you online? So I am very active on LinkedIn. So Alyssa and I will fill up your feeds over there and you can t tune into all of my antics. Uh, if you wanna learn a little bit more about the business and the coaching, you can find me@careerbenders.com or the modern coach.co. Each of those is one side of the business, one's the career coaching side, and one's the business coaching side. Well, thank you, Angie, for taking back Monday with me. This was a meant to be conversation. I. Very true. Thanks for having me, Alyssa.