Gut Instincts: Mastering Trust and Leadership feat. Kolby Goodman

Welcome back to Taking Back Monday! This week, we're excited to have Kolby Goodman join us. Kolby is a career coach and hiring expert with over a decade of experience helping individuals take control of their careers and guiding leaders in building cohesive and high-performing teams. In this episode, Kolby shares his invaluable insights on leadership, hiring practices, and team dynamics, bringing a fresh perspective to the challenges many of us face in the workplace.

Are you struggling with team trust issues or finding the right fit for your company? Tune in as Kolby delves into unconventional but effective hiring strategies, such as listing problems to be solved in job postings rather than just desired skills. Learn about the innovative "Work with Me" document, a tool that fosters better workplace communication and understanding. Discover why hiring "learn-it-alls" over "know-it-alls" can drive continuous improvement and how adapting leadership styles can significantly boost team morale and productivity.

In this episode, you will hear:

• How to list problems in job postings to attract solution-oriented candidates.
• The benefits of using a "Work with Me" document to enhance team communication.
• The importance of hiring "learn-it-alls" and fostering a culture of continuous improvement.
• The concept of leaders as "professional contortionists" and why adaptability in leadership matters.
• How understanding employees holistically can improve management and team dynamics.

Why listen to this episode now?
Finding and retaining the right talent has never been more critical. Kolby's insights offer practical solutions and fresh perspectives that can help leaders and teams thrive. Whether you're a job seeker, a seasoned manager or an aspiring leader, this episode provides actionable advice to elevate your leadership game and build stronger, more effective teams.

Join us as we take back Monday and say "goodbye" to the Sunday scaries. Tune in to gain valuable insights and strategies that will set you up for success in the week ahead.

It's time to say "goodbye" to the Sunday Scaries.

Connect with Alyssa
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Transcript

Alyssa Nolte: 0:00

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to taking back Monday. I am so excited. You decided to join us and say goodbye to the Sunday scaries and I'm excited to introduce you to my friend Kolby Goodman. Welcome Kolby.

Kolby Goodman: 0:10

Thanks for having me again.

Alyssa Nolte: 0:12

I mean, we do have to shut up the elephant in room. This is, this is take two. We recorded this episode, what, like a couple of months ago and I went to do the, the editing and I discovered that the file is corrupted. So, you know, here we are again.

Kolby Goodman: 0:25

I think the, I think the technology gods just wanted us to chat again and I'm not going to resist the gods. That's for sure.

Alyssa Nolte: 0:31

Yeah. We don't, we're mere mortals. We don't fight with the gods. So I guess the question on everyone's mind, Kolby, since you've done this before, have you taken back Monday? I think I have.

Kolby Goodman: 0:42

Yeah. I, you know, on the good one is I have, and on the not so good monies, it's still okay. You know, I started my business at this point over 10 years ago. I'm helping individuals take back their own careers and helping leaders develop teams that they're excited to lead. Uh, Our pleasures to work with and that they trust to do the work. And I think most importantly, solve the important problems so that everybody lives a happier, more joyous life at work and everywhere else.

Alyssa Nolte: 1:21

So you mentioned a keyword in there that I want to, I want to dig into the word trust, right? How many millions, if not billions of dollars have been spent on trying to Strategize on how to build trust, and I maybe have a little bit of a hot take. I would love your feedback on. I actually don't think that trust is something you can build. I don't think it's a process that you can, like, gamify or systematize. In my view, trust is merely a byproduct of having really good communication with your team, holding everyone accountable. Understanding how to motivate them and help them through perseverance and like set those intentions of why are we here? What are we doing? What is the reason that we want this outcome? So I don't believe you can build trust. I think trust is just an outcome.

Kolby Goodman: 2:05

Interesting. Interesting. I, I can see that. And I think it's, I think with that, what I train my clients to do both on the candidate side and on the leadership side is what's your gut really saying to you? Because I think when we get burned by people's situations is because We're trying to justify the action. Oh, I need to give them the bed for the doubt. Oh, like they're just having a bad day. Like, oh, like all these things that we tell ourselves because we don't want to be mean. I don't want to be rude. And it's, it's a lot easier to live in a world where everybody's trustworthy and likable. And I think we have to get burned by that. Probably one too many times that we'd like, but we have to get burned by it. And I think trusting your gut. And that's kind of what I really tell my leadership clients is like, what does your gut say after that conversation? Like, no thinking about it. Let's just go with it. And then from there, we can talk about the logic and the, you know, and the tangibles and all that. But what is your gut saying? And some people need their gut in tune, tuned up a bit. Some people need to just drown out everything else and tune in just to their gut. But it's a, I think that is the part of it that is, can be built is that self, you gotta have self trust first before you can understand and trust anybody else.

Alyssa Nolte: 3:28

I think that's a really important distinction. I started my career in a startup. So it was just me and a couple of other people. And then when I started working with larger clients. Uh, where I was coming in and I was consulting with their team and these were these huge consulting or huge companies that I was working with and I found out really quickly that, like, just because I had the best intentions and I wanted the best outcome for the team in the project that not everybody had that. I call it like the antibodies. Right. I recently had a situation. I got attacked by an antibody inside of a corporate where I wanted to come in and drive a transformation, make a change, do something. And I quickly discovered that I had accidentally stepped into someone's territory. And we had a little bit of like a situation because they didn't want me to be successful because they wanted their own thing to be successful. So it is definitely like trusting your gut and having the right team in place with the right goals and the right outcomes. I

Kolby Goodman: 4:26

mean, it's it's really good territorial stuff, right? It's like, and that's the thing about management that I don't think enough leaders are ready to take on is you don't just get to manage and lead the professional. You have to understand holistically the person. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's, it's, it's my joke that. If all of our job titles were pinpoint accurate to what we did all day, we would all be professional email responders and meeting attendees.

Alyssa Nolte: 5:02

And

Kolby Goodman: 5:02

when you're a manager, you're an amateur therapist,

Alyssa Nolte: 5:07

right?

Kolby Goodman: 5:08

And so it's your job to, I think, do get curious with other people. And I think, yes, like. Expect good intentions, but understand true motivation and do that through getting curious and asking good questions. And it takes, that takes a heck of a lot longer and more energy than dictation or delegation or punishment. But if you can invest that in the short term, your long term as a leader will be more fruitful. It will be more enjoyable. It will be Honestly, easier because at that point, you are, you're, you're leading, but you're leading leaders how to lead themselves. And you may have to rewind the tape back 30 seconds to hear that again. Because that was a lot of the same word really quickly. But then also, you are there to help people get out of their own way as well.

Alyssa Nolte: 6:03

I think

Kolby Goodman: 6:04

that's what a lot of leadership is just to get people to kind of wake up a little bit, take ownership and get excited about the problems they want to solve. And the people they want to sell them with,

Alyssa Nolte: 6:16

I think I'm going to add another professional job title to professional email responder and professional meeting attendee. I think it's also like, as a leader, I feel like I'm a professional contortionist. Like, I feel like I have to change my leadership style, depending on who I'm working with. So the 1 person that I'm coaching, I might say. I can be very direct with them. We can have a direct face to face conversation, right? They need that direct information. I can have a frank conversation with them and they won't get upset or be offended. It's just business, right? Then I have another person who they're very empathetic and. Very good. Very good at what they do, but the way you approach motivation, motivating that person and communicating with that person and holding them accountable with necessary is entirely different. I have to be a different person depending on who I'm in the room with and I have to do it well and authentically me.

Kolby Goodman: 7:07

I mean, it's hard, right? Because you're where you, yes, you have to wear these masks, right?

Alyssa Nolte: 7:12

Yes, masks is the right word.

Kolby Goodman: 7:14

And I think it's, I think it's part of a good leader's job to, I think, meet. Your team more than halfway, maybe 90 percent of the way to where they are and help them understand the masks that they're wearing and then make it so that you can bring space to make sure everybody meets you. Right? Because those masks, those personas, those avatars that you have to put on. All the time at a moment's notice, maybe multiple times in the same meeting. Yeah, that's that's mentally and physically exhausting. And so it's no wonder that, you know, leaders feel disconnected. They feel resentful. They feel like they're babysitting. And so, you know, I think there needs to be more open discussion and to bring everybody to the table to say, okay, how. What's the best way to work with me? I was just trying to look up here. And I'll send this over to you after this to put in the show notes because I cannot recall it verbatim right now, but also a podcast a few weeks ago with the woman who was the CEO of Stripe, the payment company.

Alyssa Nolte: 8:24

Oh, cool.

Kolby Goodman: 8:25

She has this thing called a work with me document. And I was like, Oh, this is, she said it and it was so obvious and it was so apparent. And it's so good. You ever have that moment where it's like, when you have like, oh, duh, like, why didn't I know it's so obvious that you

Alyssa Nolte: 8:41

can't imagine that you didn't think of it first. That's when you know, it's good. That's when you know, it's the right thing.

Kolby Goodman: 8:46

Yes. Yes. You took the words right out of my mouth. Yes. That's when you know, it's good. And she's just like, this is how I work. This is how I like my emails to be written to me. This is all this. And I, it just brings awareness. And I think even, and she said, like, even if people don't abide by this to the letter of the law, it's okay because they're trying their best to meet where I'm at. And I also require them to write their own document so I can meet them where they are.

Alyssa Nolte: 9:10

I love that. That is so smart.

Kolby Goodman: 9:13

It just makes, you know, it is a, it's a user manual for yourself and for your, your, your team. Because I think we, you know, those first, you know, I think, you know, 90 days is. Kind of this nice round number, but we suss it out every time, right? We just, we, we, we walk on eggshells. We don't want to screw up. We don't upset anybody, especially as a new employee, but definitely as the leader who brought stuff, brought that person in

Alyssa Nolte: 9:38

and

Kolby Goodman: 9:39

so why not get all of that out in the open, right? Like short

Alyssa Nolte: 9:43

circuit, it shortcut. Let's skip to the, let's skip to the last chapter here. Like that's smart.

Kolby Goodman: 9:48

We don't have time and we don't have the patience to guess and check how to work with each other. Let's just be open and honest. And I think that can be a real key to avoiding a lot of headache and heartache when it comes to the strife that we tend to experience more than we'd like to admit at work.

Alyssa Nolte: 10:06

Yeah. And to that point though, that requires so much self awareness in order to do that. Like I have a vivid memory of putting together a resume for a job in college and I wrote things like what they wanted, which was detail oriented and yada, yada. I am not a detail oriented person. I'm a big picture thinker. Like I am not the person who's going to come in and do a ton of process. I'm going to maybe design the process, but I'm not going to be one who can execute it very well. And the teams that I've worked best with. Just recognize that my like superpower is not to be in the weeds. It's to see the entire map, right? But I got the job and I hated that job and they didn't really like me either because I wasn't who they were really looking for. I wasn't self aware enough to realize, Hey, you're not detail oriented. You're not process motivated. You're not going to thrive here. And none of us were happy.

Kolby Goodman: 11:00

And I think that brings such a good point when it comes to hiring correctly. And this is my, this is my expertise. This is my. This is where I get to nerd out is what

Alyssa Nolte: 11:10

gets you up for Monday morning.

Kolby Goodman: 11:11

Yes, absolutely. Is that it? We tend to evaluate candidates based on what they are or what they say they are. Detail oriented. I'm a good team player. All these things. And yes, like we asked quite some of the time when you, when your detail orientation helped you avert disaster, all this stuff. Right.

Alyssa Nolte: 11:32

Right.

Kolby Goodman: 11:32

But what we're not doing and what we're hoping a candidate is going to magically guess is really how, how can you help us solve our problems? That's why you're hiring somebody. That's why you're taking the time and the energy and the money to bring another adult in the room, take the work on. So again, let's short circuit it. Why are we talking about how a time when somebody dealt with an upset customer, when you can ultimately say, Hey, Right now, we have a problem with customer service. Our customers feel like we're short with them, that we don't get back to them in time, and that we're not giving them correct answers. How could you help? How could you help us solve that problem? Have you solved that problem before in the past? Have you

Alyssa Nolte: 12:18

seen someone successfully solve that problem? Have you seen someone absolutely fail at solving that problem so we can learn from what they did wrong?

Kolby Goodman: 12:26

But we tend to go in these interviews And dance around the real issue. Because what I have found is that managers understandably don't want to spoon feed somebody the right answers,

Alyssa Nolte: 12:38

right? They don't

Kolby Goodman: 12:38

want to be parroted back what they want to hear. But as you've, as you and I found it too, in my own career, I can pair it, what you want me to say, but it doesn't mean I can do what you want me to do.

Alyssa Nolte: 12:49

I can wear the mask you want me to wear for a short amount of time. And then you're going to find out that's not who I really am.

Kolby Goodman: 12:55

And that's what I tell my candidate clients is like, I'm going to I, you can fake it. Absolutely. You can fake it for a couple of hours.

Alyssa Nolte: 13:02

Yeah.

Kolby Goodman: 13:03

Can and what, and do you want to fake it for 40 plus hours a week for the indefinite future? Probably not.

Alyssa Nolte: 13:09

And I would argue that, yeah, you want the job maybe, but you're going to be miserable if it's not who you authentically are, what you authentically enjoy, what you're good at. You are not going to enjoy that career and we're talking about more than just like a basic skill set, like fundamentally your natural approach to work and to life, right? I can fake being detail oriented, but that's not a skill you can really teach. Some people just are that.

Kolby Goodman: 13:37

Well, and as a leader, you, you should be having these honest conversations up front. And that's what I teach my management and leadership clients is like, how do you drop the facade of the performance of the interview on both sides of it?

Alyssa Nolte: 13:52

Yeah.

Kolby Goodman: 13:53

Right. And I think, you know, as the manager, we try to ask a question. We try to ask good questions. We try to sell the opportunity, try to sell the company. But if you can be honest about where are, where are the holes, where are the chinks in the armor? I think that gives such a more authentic connection in the interview, because what you're, what you need to make clear to the candidate is you're not looking to hire the most, anything, most experienced, more educated, whatever, looking to hire, right? And if this just isn't a right fit, that's okay. Nothing wrong to

Alyssa Nolte: 14:30

you. Like, nothing is wrong with you because this wasn't the right fit. Or the right time or the right team, like, just because you didn't get the job doesn't mean it wasn't perfect. And just because you're didn't find the right candidate. The 1st time doesn't mean you can't try again.

Kolby Goodman: 14:45

Well, and I think too, and I've, I've seen this happen multiple times with my clients when I've helped them hire new people is like, you know, when we tell somebody, Hey, this is, I don't think this is a good fit for either of us. And this is why here's the feedback we want to give you. This is what we're expecting. And this isn't going to be a good relationship. And they, they say, thank you. And they appreciate it. And they say, well, I'd like to stay in touch. And I've had multiple clients say, you know, get post another job and have that same person apply again for a different role. And it'd be a great fit. And that person is still engaged with the process because we treated them with respect. And they also knew this wasn't a performance. We want you to be real. We want you to be authentic. And we want to see if it's a good fit.

Alyssa Nolte: 15:30

You know, one of the things I've seen going around. Like TikTok, the internet, social media, whatever, whatever platform is your platform of choice is this idea that like slamming companies because they didn't hire me. They want this and they want that and they can't have everything they want. And they didn't want me. So obviously they don't know what they're doing. Like, there probably is some of that, right? There is some of, you know, the, the AI is reading the resume and you didn't optimize it right for their AI or whatever, but, you know, I think right fit matters so much more than right now.

Kolby Goodman: 16:05

And that's it's hard. That is something I, I totally agree with, but I also understand companies perspective is like, we, we need a body,

Alyssa Nolte: 16:15

right? Sometimes you just need a body and that's when you need a body.

Kolby Goodman: 16:20

I think it's about, but I think what we default there too, is like, we need to understand what this person knows. I listened to another pod. I'm on a podcast. I listen to a podcast. I'm a walking podcast, I guess.

Alyssa Nolte: 16:32

I love it.. Kolby Goodman: I listened to prominent VC in Silicon Valley. Started this company called Wealthfront, which does like automatic online investing for you. Cool. And he said I learned a long time ago. I need to stop hiring. Know-it-alls, and start learning, uh, testing it. Start hiring, learn it alls. Yeah.

Kolby Goodman: 16:52

And I loved that. I was like, well, and it resonated with me because this is what I've been teaching for a decade. And it's like, in all reality, as a leader, you do not care what somebody did yesterday. You are most concerned with how somebody thinks today.

Alyssa Nolte: 17:05

And so

Kolby Goodman: 17:05

if all of your questions, all of your approach. If all your communication with the candidate is about doing of the work versus understanding what's happening between their ears, their logic is, what their motivations are, what is their internal algorithm, then all you're doing is hiring a job doer. You're not hiring a problem solver and that job doer that order taker is going to be a liability because you're just, there's going to be a bottleneck there. They're going to need a lot of handholding, and they're going to become a plight on your Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays. And and honestly, maybe Saturday and 24

Alyssa Nolte: 17:41

sevens. Yeah. So let's flip that. Let's move away from hiring and move to team dynamics. Like, if I'm a leader and, you know, someone was hired, they're not right fit or they were right fit, but not anymore. They're not the right fit anymore for where we've gone or where we've, we've like, where we're going. Am I, if I'm a leader, yeah. Is it my responsibility to push them, grow them, get them to be the right fit or what do I do next?

Kolby Goodman: 18:12

It's a really good question. It's, I think you need to give them a chance, right? Because they cannot read your mind. Uh, that's not fair to, to assume that. And so as long as you are clearly communicating what you need them to do, but also again, what are the new problems you want them to solve? Because I think, especially nowadays where. Nobody's getting a gold watch after being at the same company for 30 years. There's no more pensions. We have to really be more purposeful with our careers. Nobody wants to, nobody sees the value of being a cog in the machine anymore. And so you have to help them understand this is how we need you to think. This is the challenges we want you to take on and take ownership of those things. And only, and then, and only then after you've clearly stated that, give them the tools, the training and the chance. If they're still not kind of getting getting to a point where they need to perform or they need to impact, then it it's a I think it's it is welcome to let them go. Right? And make it so that again, it is framed as this is no longer a good fit and do anything bad or wrong. This is what we feel like your skills are. These are the skills. These are the approaches we need in this in this role now. And so we'd like to amicably call it a day.

Alyssa Nolte: 19:32

Yeah, that's so hard. Like, it is hard because my, you know, tender, empathetic heart wants to be like, well, you know, they're, they're such a great add to the team culture. And, you know, we just like them and we love them. And like, you know, the personality hire, if you will, like, that's hard.

Kolby Goodman: 19:52

Absolutely. It's not easy to let anybody go. Right. But I think it's, I think as long as you know, as a leader, you've done everything that you can to give them a chance and that doesn't mean, like you said, give them a chance in a way for them and succeed because there is also a place where I know a lot of managers who are enabling bad employees. Who give excuses who skirt work who

Alyssa Nolte: 20:16

well, once upon a time, they were my top seller. I know they're not anymore, but, you know, 5 years ago, they were the top seller.

Kolby Goodman: 20:23

Right. And so understanding that, Hey, what's going on? Uh, you know, your productivity is coming off, like, help me understand and kind of bringing out that couch and, and putting on that therapist hat and, and getting real with your, your employees. Cause. You know, the book difficult conversations is a, I think it's a, it's a must read for every manager, because if you're looking to lead, and if you're looking to get people to produce, then you're going to have to ruffle some feathers. You're going to have to have real conversations. Yeah. I don't know of a

Alyssa Nolte: 20:59

single leader who has ever led a team of any kind and not had to have difficult conversations on the regular.

Kolby Goodman: 21:06

Sure. And if you're not good at that, if you're not willing to have them, then you're causing yourself so much more pain and anguish. And if you're out there and you found yourself in a role where you're leading, and maybe you were leading not because only you were great at the people aspect, but you were good at the technical aspect, you could do the thing.

Alyssa Nolte: 21:27

You could

Kolby Goodman: 21:27

sell. You could. Account you could administrate

Alyssa Nolte: 21:31

so common to, I feel like people get promoted because they were the top performer, not because they were the top leader.

Kolby Goodman: 21:38

Well, and this happens so much in 21 and 22 during the great resignation, everybody was switching all the time. And so it just was, it was literally a next step situation. And so whether or not that person was ready to lead. They were tasked with leading and that leader and that opportunity came with obviously a raise and the title bump and a sweetener to the, to the pie, but then they were left hanging because they didn't get any training, any support. They maybe not have been even the right person to take on the role. And now they're fine. They're, they're drowning in work. They don't have the time or the energy to work with their teams and then work on themselves to do that good self awareness development. And this opportunity that seemed like. The golden goose is now its own prison because

Alyssa Nolte: 22:27

it's golden handcuffs instead. Right? Yeah,

Kolby Goodman: 22:29

exactly.

Alyssa Nolte: 22:30

Yeah. Well I think we could probably talk all day, but I think technically we're out of time. So hopefully the technology gods cooperate this time. And our next conversation can be more social than, uh, having to get it recorded, but thank you so much for being on the show. I have two final questions for you. Question number one, Who is leading the charge on taking back Monday? Who else should we be talking to?

Kolby Goodman: 22:52

So I have a good friend. His name is Alex Resnick. He owns a company in Miami, Florida called Evolve Leadership, and I love what he's doing because he is injecting authenticity and realness back into the workplace. He talks about upgrading communication. He talks about vulnerability. He talks about self awareness, really bringing the EQ back into the office. And I think he's somebody he, he posts regularly on social. You should follow him on TikTok and Instagram and LinkedIn. He's just a cool guy who knows what he's talking about and just has this warm energy about him. And I think. If more leaders took his advice in stride and engaged with him, this would be a much better world.

Alyssa Nolte: 23:39

I love it. So lastly, if everyone is loving this as much as I am, they want to connect with you, they want more of you, where can they find you online?

Kolby Goodman: 23:48

Best way to find me is to hop over to LinkedIn, search Kolby Goodman, K O L B Y Goodman connect with me, say hi, let you let me know that you found me here. Would be happy to engage with you if you're having trouble finding a job or finding the right person for the job. I'm an expert on both sides of the interview table and would love to see how I can help.

Alyssa Nolte: 24:08

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. And we hope that you all take back Monday.